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King Abdullah of Jordan Nov. 13, 2001
The following are excepts from an international call-in BBC TV interview with King Abdullah of Jordan. For a complete transcript of the show and audio and video versions, visit the BBC site Maria Martinez, Virginia, US: I would like to ask what your personal feelings are about the September 11 terrorist attacks on the US are and what you feel about the US's response.
Actually, it was my wife that managed to call me a bit later and said - look its very serious and so we went into the cockpit and actually got the BBC World Service and then we began to understand the extent of what happened on that day, and it wasn't until we saw the images as we turned around and came back to London to refuel that I managed to find a television set and look at the images of the aircrafts that we suddenly saw the extent of the horror of what was happening in the United States. I don't think there's anybody in the world that wasn't shocked and stunned and grief-stricken by what had happened to our friends in the United States. But this is a time when you can count on friends and you have a lot of friends in my country - I hope you consider me a friend - and in this very difficult time the friends of the United States will stand with America, side by side. Whatever the challenges are in the future, we'll take them on together.
I know that all the military planners in the United States and in the coalition are trying to do their best to do this as quickly as possible with the least amount of damage to Afghanistan and the Afghan people. But as always in the fog of war, there's going to be casualties and collateral damage. But I know, having worked with your armed forces in your country and the people that are in positions of command there, they're doing their best that they can to do this as quickly and as painlessly - if we can say it that way - as possible.
Where it becomes a bit greyer - if you have an individual that takes on and kills people of the armed forces. That's where the definition between terrorism and freedom fighter is a bit more grey. But to me a terrorist is somebody who voluntarily takes the lives of innocent people.
So we have been fighting terrorism for 40 to 50 years and as a result you won't get shady stances from Jordan. We're committed and we will do whatever is required to join the international coalition to combat terrorism.
Therefore, when you have a problem, as you have now, with Osama bin Laden, or with Afghanistan, those sensitivities are going to rise. But I think that that we understand that there is a clear threat to the international community and that clear threat, at this stage, is Osama bin Laden, not Afghanistan or the Afghan people. And I so I think that you will see that the Jordanian Government response will be very specific to that.
My question for you is what do you think the best way of expressing sympathy for the innocent victims of this war, while at the same time supporting the US-led fight in Afghanistan? How do you do that without cancelling out the other?
So it is a very delicate balance. I think that the planners in the coalition are, as we all are, very sensitive to the innocent people. But at the same time if we don't deal with the problem we're just going to have to revisit it again. As a result, there are discussions of whether this war should continue into the month of Ramadan or longer, I think that any human being would want confrontation or violence to cease as quickly as possible. So we wouldn't want the operations to go more than a single second longer than it has. But having said that, we do have a problem. We have to deal with it and we have to pray to God that we are smart enough to do it with the least amount of innocent people being caught up in it. It's very, very difficult.
When Osama bin Laden brought aircrafts to crash into the World Trade Center or the Pentagon, he didn't care which lives he was affecting - Jordanians died [as did] many nationalities - I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of Afghans died in those particular targets also.
I believe that the majority of Afghans are saying - who is Osama bin Laden and why has he brought this on us. I think there has to be tremendous sympathy for the Afghan people. They have been left on their own for many, many years throughout the crises their country has had to suffer. But I can reassure you also that having talked to the United States administration and to European leaders that although we are seeing the suffering of what the bombings may be inflicting on the Afghan people, the next stage will be finally to try and solve the problems of Afghanistan - to rewrite the economic and social problems that that country has and get them back on their own two feet - otherwise what is the future of the Afghan people? So we have to put up with this military stage but I think there is an understanding from the international community that after the military stage we have to bring money, finance - you have to help the people be able to govern themselves. The President said, I am not about nation-building, I am here to resolve the issues.
But if we want to get into the religious aspects of things, religious holidays such as Ramadan or any other from any other religion, has never been a subject of whether war should be carried out or not. Obviously whenever there is religious holidays, it is much more sensitive for people - whether it's Christians or Muslims in this case - Ramadan is on the verge of happening and so is Christmas and I think that increases the imperative for the military commanders in the coalition to try and bring this to a quick resolution.
So the understanding between the East and the West, between Muslims and Christians and Jews is, I think, the essence of what it is that we are trying to embark on - breaking down those barriers. The quicker we move, the quicker we will be able to resolve the frustrations and the sensitivities of people in our part of the world. But definitely leading into Ramadan there is going to be a lot of reservations if the campaign is going to continue.
There is an impression in the West that good Muslims are doing nothing to stem the tide of radical Islam. So my question is first: Why aren't you and other prominent Arab leaders in countries such as Egypt, Syria and perhaps even Saudi Arabia, organizing or at least encouraging a collective action campaign in which moderate Muslims who make up the majority would be able to denounce effectively radical Islamism - this would include respected clerics who might participate? Second, why don't you and other influential Arabs go straight to the mosques, straight to Al-Jazeera - which has been taken over as a de facto global ministry of propaganda by al-Qaeda and send a message of moderation to help discredit and stigmatise Osama bin Laden?
There is a distinct problem - I think it took everybody by surprise. The Osama bin Ladens of this world are certainly fundamentalist extremists in our religion that have definitely distorted Islam and then hijacked Islam for their own very destructive ends and as a bi-product of maybe the Cold War are still, in many parts of the world, coming out of that. The 11 September probably took a lot of people by surprise - there's a lot of things that were not considered politically correct. It may not have been politically correct inside of Islam to say that there is an ideological confrontation, where the majority of Muslims believe in one thing and [this] has been distorted by people like Osama bin Laden. I think there will be a lot of soul-searching inside of Islam in the coming years and this is not something that is going to be dealt with in months, but it will take years, if not decades of what we truly believe in because people like Osama bin Laden have taken the words of the Koran and of the Prophet and turned them upside down. This has been particularly damaging in areas where Islam is prominent in non-Arabic speaking countries - in Africa and in Asia where Arabic is not the first language of those individuals. So these extremists have been able through their network to be able to get into the mosques and through the communities to say this is what Islam stands for and it is completely against what we stand for. What we are doing now in the Arab world is coming together - the core of Islamic society to say that we have to stand up and we have to educate and as a result you see clerics coming not only to educate and warn the Islamic communities in the Middle East and the Islamic world what these people are about, but also coming to European countries and to western countries - in England in particular as an example or anywhere else in Europe - to say that we understand the problem inside your Muslim communities. A lot of them have been misguided because of these individuals and we would like to be able to come in and voice our opinion to the average Muslim in these European countries to say this is what we stand for. Unfortunately they have been duped by the Osama bin Ladens of this world and it is a great problem that we are addressing now. If you are looking for a reaction, well Jordan has reacted - I can speak on behalf of my country - but I think it took everybody else by surprise. And it is the realisation that we have this struggle and coming out into the open to be able to challenge. So its something we have to look inside of ourselves.
My question is will the present US action in Afghanistan set a bad precedent - that if you are powerful enough you can attack weaker countries and get a suspect out by force. If your answer is "yes" then why do you support the United States? If you say "no", will it not set a bad precedent, and what is your justification?
I do believe that from the outset there was an opportunity given to the Afghan Government and to the Taleban in particular to look at it from legal means. But I think we all understood that the reaction was very negative from the Taleban so the only alternative was to go after the man who perpetrated a tremendous amount of violence on innocent people. Again it wasn't just Americans that lost their lives but many people from the international community, and so it's not fair to assume that Osama bin Laden is innocent. He is guilty and he has created a tremendous destruction and continues to call for the death of Christians and Jews. And if you understand where Osama bin Laden is coming [from] - if you don't believe in his brand of Islam, we as Muslims are also the next target. So I think we have got to stay focused on what Osama bin Laden represents and how much of a problem he is - not just for the United States but for the rest of us.
I think it is a clear indication that the world is definitely changing. So as a result, I think that you will see things moving for the better. What the President says - if I can translate in my own words - is that what's happened before 11 September is the past, we are now embarking upon a new world and a new world order - one which I hope will be good. As I said, out of adversity, comes hope. So it's up to countries that have been questionable in their methods of supporting terrorism or doing things illegal, wrong or evil - to have the chance to decide where they want to stand. Do they want to stand as part of the new international community or do they want to be on the periphery? I think that's the President's message and the message has been through dialogue to a lot of countries that have those question marks on them - look these are the problems that we have with you - we would like through dialogue and through diplomacy to be able to sort those problems out. But be under no misconception that if you don't, we're going to come back and revisit that particular equation because we do have a problem with you. And as a result a lot of countries around the world that do have difficulties with the international community are looking into themselves now and deciding which way they are going to stand. So I think when he says - with us or against us, I think we are looking at a much bigger concept of that. We are looking at a new world order that is going to be safe and secure and stable. The other part of that is I believe that the West and the countries that have the financial capability have understood how imperative it is to solve not only the conflicts of peoples around the world but also the deprivation that is in a lot of societies. If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, you're always going to have a problem. It is in my vested interest for you to be healthy, for you to have an economy, for your people to be employed if I am going to be safe. So I think that's the type of new world that we are talking about.
What do you think can now be done to regain and rebuild the trough between the Palestinians and Israelis?
So as the Prime Minister put it yesterday, I think we have to identify that there will be a future Palestinian state. There will be the integration and security of Israel into the region and if we have those two as givens, as the Prime Minister said, then you can work back because then you reassure the Palestinians and the Arab community in general and the Israelis that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and unfortunately that has not been stipulated enough. So really none of us know where we are heading and so the international community, I believe will come together, I hope, sooner rather than later to identify as the Prime Minister said, those two [objectives] and allow us some benchmarks to work from.
Having said that, I personally would be surprised because all Jordanians and all those of Palestinian origin have become such a part of our society - I would be surprised if it [were but] a small portion that would want to go back. Again, I think I have to maybe clarify that because I am about to turn 40 and 70% of the country is younger than me. So you have a generation of young people of Palestinian origin that don't really have any links - they weren't born in the West Bank etc. So to the younger generation of Jordanians, I believe the importance is to move on with their lives - they want to have prosperity, they want to have jobs. So that question is going to become less and less relevant as time goes on.
As for the leadership - it is very easy for people to say is that leader the right leader of that particular country or that particular party. Arafat is the symbol of the Palestinian people - Sharon is the prime minister, duly elected by his people of the state of Israel. So that is up to the Palestinians and Israelis to decide whether their leaders are effective or not effective and not for us.
Wouldn't it be wonderful in this century as we start a new millennium that Jerusalem - the holy part of Jerusalem - is a symbol of Muslims, Christians and Jews coming together and we have to look a the bigger picture. We have issues in the world and as we form this new world society, I hope for the better, what a wonderful symbol it would be that Jerusalem would be a part of that.
But where the problem is, is that when we know that in a certain rally that there's going to be an element - and we have seen this in Jordan in the past year and you are very aware of what I am talking about - when there are certain elements are going to leave the rallies so that they can overturn cars and break windows. Now when the authorities have a feeling that this is going to happen - we have talked to those that are organising the rally to say look don't do it this time. But all those people who have been banned from one certain rally probably came back the next week to have another one. So there is a dialogue that goes between both sides. So I think it is kind of unfair to paint a picture that is a one-sided thing. If we could talk about press freedoms, I am very surprised that you say that because in my letter to the government last week, I specifically asked for the Ministry of Information to be disbanded. We have been the first people in the Middle East, because I believe that we need to have civil liberties and freedoms in our society and a good way of doing that is eradicating the Ministry of Information - creating a model where reasonable and responsible people from the media will create a higher committee to examine the ethics and the moral codes of the media in particular. Also I want to reassure you that that committee is not going to be run by government ministers - I want it from the media itself. So I am saying the sky is the limit in freedoms but also there has to be some sort of responsibility and people have to meet us half way. So I am looking to an increased movement on press freedoms and also on the rule of law. Yes, we want to have a very free and open society but also there are particular elements out there that want to use those opportunities to create havoc in the streets - no country in the world is going to allow that. So let's be very clear, rallies, demonstrations are allowed in Jordan but you have to go through the appropriate channels and you in particular probably know what that method is and we will continue to allow that to happen.
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